Plautdietsch
 

Hey guys I see you all are experts here and know a lot about different languages. I brought you a small riddle, if you don't mind. Let's try to find out what is the origin of Plautdietsch (there is such a language) and where is it spoken. I hope to get someone interested! ;)

hmmm.. I believe Platdeutsch is the common name for a number of dialects spoken in the flat regions of Northern Germany between Hamburg and the German/Danish border? A small German minority on the Danish side of the border still speak platdeutsch as far as I know.

:)
Jorgen

Almost right
 

Good for you Jorgen! you were pretty close to the right answer. Plautdietsch is also called Low German or Mennonite German. It is spoken in Canada by around 80 thousand people as their first language and roughly 20 thousand people as their second language.
Plautdietsch isn't intelligible with many other Low German languages, but it is spoken in many other regions such as Argentina, Belize, Bolivia, Brazil, Costa Rica, Germany, Kazakhstan, Mexico, Paraguay, Russia (Asia), Uruguay, USA.

Interesting information! – In my part of the world we are familiar with the sound of Northern German Plat deutsch (also describes as Low German as opposed to standard High German). However, I never heard of your more globally used Mennonite Plautdietsch variant before.
Thank you for widening my horizon

:)
Jorgen

Friends?
 

Hey, Jorgen I hope you didn't get upset. I can see that you are really smart and intelligent. Finding information about extinct or less spread languages is my hobby so that my "global" view on them is well motivated. On the other hand sometimes I prove to be a bit nasty, so forgive my small tricks :)
Let's be friends!

Friends, of course!
 

Hi Freakie,

Upset?? No, of course, not – on the contrary – just pleasantly surprised as I didn’t know of the existence of Plautdietsch. New information is ALWAYS very much welcome! :)

Most friendly regards

:)
Jorgen

you are absolutely right -
 

but please do not think that PLATTDEUTSCH - flat German - is only spoken in the North, the Westfalian differs really from the Ruhr valley or Sauerland PLATTDEUTSCH.

It is very interesting that the source of this dialect is absolutely the same, but the influence of land- or warlords, i.e. French, Englisch, Dutch or anything else, makes this language so different that even in a distance of abt. 50 kms people don't even understand each other.

In school, especially in the elementary school, we were forced not to speak PLATTDEUTSCH - as this was thougt to be the most primitive way of talking, so a lot of ability to use our dialect has been destroyed.

Reinhard

Thank you. I didn’t know Plattdeutsch was spoken also in southern regions of Germany.

As for the difference between dialects this is not an uncommon phenomenon. My own country is a good example of this:

Denmark – as you know – is a VERY small country (5.3 million people living on 43.000 square kilometres). Even in this tiny territory we find a large number of dialects, the most important of them so different from one another that they are unintelligible to people from other regions.

Friendly regards,

:)
Jorgen

just tell me
 

is this difference in the dialects also made by conquerors or is it self-made?

In Germany, you can really find out which nationality has influenced the kind of speaking.

Reinhard

Interesting discussion
 

Hi guys, I guess I managed to raise your interest in Plautdietsch. Exept my knowledge about this language, I should confess both of you enriched it a lot. Didn't know that even in Germany somebody is still speaking Low German. This Plautdietsch I was talking about, is spoken by descendants of German emigrants to the New World (USA, Canada) and then Brasil, Argentina, etc. It is a mistery though how it came that in Kazahstan this language is also spoken. Any ideas?

Hi Freakie,

:)Yes, indeed! You did set me off looking for more information :)

I think you will these links interesting - particularly the first one:

http://www.irinnews.org/report.asp?R...try=KAZAKHSTAN

http://www.joshuaproject.net/peopctr...106548&rog3=KZ

http://www.ethnologue.com/show_count...ame=Kazakhstan

Jorgen

maybe there is just another
 

more simple reason that this "dialect" has been transferred to Kasachstan, as we call it in German.

In the beginning of the 18th century lots of farmer people, having no own ground, starved to death or decided to immigrate elsewhere.

They did not only go West, they also took the way to the east - maybe you know Sorbians or the frontier between Russia and Poland, also "supplied" by the HANSE, a German trade comapny.

As the simple seamen spoke their old language, which for sur was no "High German" - they settled there, and they kept their use and language.

Reinhard

Goddamn computers
 

Hi guys,

I had problems with my computer, it even now gives me headaches :( So I didn't manage to check the site Jorgen recommended. Could you write in the forum what it was about?
Reinhard's explanation brought a ray of light in this question, though I can't figure it out how Sorbians or even other German population got so far to the borders of Volga and more that that, they contrived to preserve their language in the middle of Russian population, known for its power of assimilation and denationalization.
Still wondering...

Hi Freakie,

Sorry the links don’t work for you.

The last 2 links are just general data re. the distribution of Plautdietsch and the languages spoken in Kasakhstan.

The first link tells the story of a young Kasakhstan girl of ethnic German origin and gives a brief overview of the history of ethnic Germans in Russia and Kasakhstan:

The Volga Germans: in the last half of the 18th century German farmers came to Russia and settled in the Volga river and Black sea regions, maintaining German language, culture, traditions, religion. They came invited by Russian empress, Catherine II the Great (an ethnic German herself). In 1941 (World War 2) they were deported in large numbers to Siberia and Kasakhstan by Stalin who feared that they would side and collaborate with the German armies.

:)
Jorgen

Germans in South America
 

I stayed aside all this time as Plautdietsch is an unknown language for me. I guess know I have plenty of information about it.

After the interesting comments made by Jorgen and Reinhard, I still do not understand how it comes that Plautdietsch is spoken also in South America?
Did Germans settled there too? If yes, when as I don't remember from history about any German expedition to Brasil or Argentina.

Sergiu.

Hi Sergiu,

In the very early 1900’s many Europeans (also Scandinavians) immigrated to the Americas – some looking for the freedom to practise their religious beliefs, many simply hoping to escape poverty.

I have no particular knowledge about the exodus of the Germans, but found a couple of links concerning German/Mennonite immigration to South America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_...ority_Language

http://gosouthamerica.about.com/cs/s...Mennonites.htm

:)
Jorgen

looking on your comment, Sergiu,
 

I was a little bit astonished, but you are right!

This is not only German, This is Dutch (Netherlands), too, and OLD German, too - if you have a look into old dictionaries you will find out that both of the languages have a "transcript" to a dialect meaning of "flat german".

So, also Dutch seamen might have imported the language to anywhere in the world.

Reinhard

Post-war exodus...
 

Actually there HAS been an exodus of Germans to South America!

First of all Argentina and Chile are to be mentioned. Both countries granted shelter to German settlers at the beginning of the last century, and especially at the end of the World War II. Their governments allegedly issued blank passports and identity documents to former Nazi officers, scientists, and other people who’d have been tried as war criminals after the collapse of the Third Reich. Argentina, for instance, became a postbellum haven for Nazis due to the government of the pro-Nazi Colonel Juan Domingo Peron. A similar militarized government facilitated immigration of the German post-war refugees into Chile.

Among the most notorious immigrants were Adolf Eichmann, the mastermind of the “Final Solution”, and Josef Mengele, dubbed “the Angel of Death” for the horrendous medical experiments undertaken under his supervision on the prisoners at Auschwitz. Adolf Eichmann was apprehended in 1960 by some Israeli agents in Argentina. He was tried and eventually executed…

Nonetheless, the connection with the Nazi shouldn’t at all scare people! As a matter of fact all German settlers in South America have lead a perfectly serene life since. According to a Discovery Channel program I watched about two years ago, there are several primarily Germanic regions in Argentina where unusually high moral values dominate. The specific culture and its many beauties make the region a popular tourist attraction not only for foreigners, but also for the Hispanic citizens of the country. ;)

Speaking in Plautdietsch
 

I guess everybody was right making his point, as the truth is somwhere in the middle. It might be Dutch seamen, it might be and surely was the emmigration of Germans in the eighteenth and nineteenth century and why not the post-war exodus?

I only wonder how much Plautdietsch differs from the standard Deutsch? As for example, Reinhard or Jorgen would you be able to understand it and speak?

Sergiu

sorry I had a hardware breakdown
 

so I only can answer now - my apologizes.


I can understand the Plattdeutsch -
spoken in Northern Germany
spoken in my region (it's miners language)
spoken in the Westfalian area

but it would be hard to speak and to be understood.

There is a lot of literature available in Plattdeutsch, as well as TV stage shows. And: German carnival (from Cologne) is always in "Koelsch", a very funny variatión of our language, even for a German as hard to be understood as Bavarian.

Reinhard(:-}

Hope your computer is ok now
 

Hi Reinhard,

If I understood correctly there are several "types" of Plautdietsch, spoken in Europe (Germany, maybe Netherlands and Denmark) and in the rest of the world: Canada, the USA, Kazahstan Argentina and so on.

It is interesting though, because having the same background high German and Pluatdietsch differs so much. Can Platdeutsch be labeled in a way as an archaic language, the predecessor of nowadays High Deutsch? Or it is rather a totally distinct language, as to say "independent".

You mentioned something about "Koelsch", could you tell more about it?

Sergiu

Hi Sergiu
 

my view is a little bit different:
first of all, the "High" language is available, in every country.

By the Example of Britain, you can see that the "pure" language is much more available there -

compared to Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Russia, Spain, Portugal, where you can find a lot of dialects and "flat language", which is always the mixture of the pure and some other languages.

As far as Germany is concerned, the Northern Plattdeutsch is influenced by the seamen and the soldiers coming from the waterside, in the middle, with us, a lot of French is included, in the Westfalian area you will find English and Dutch influences, and going east, you will find Polish and Russian influences.

So, Plattdeutsch is alway something like a longdrink ....

Reinhard

Longdrink
 

Hi Reinhard,
I guess you are right about the longdrink. But is it good or bad, this is the question. I just want to know your opinion. As I see the picture, the "flat" languages dominate absolutely the "pure", "high" ones. Is this a sign of ignorance or it is just the normal way of daily life where we are tempted to use the "informal" way of expressing.

Sergiu

Question/Comment
 

I am not an expert on Plat, although I know it. I have done comparative IE languages and have studies the development of German languages, but I cannot say I know about regional varieties of Plat and thank Reinhard for the info (where are you from? I know the Mecklenburger Platdeutch the best).

Plat is not necessarily an informal way of expressing oneself. It is a branch of Germanic languages that has a history of its own and has the stages of alt- mittel- and neu-platdeutsch. It basically is a variety of Old German that has never gone through the second sound-shift, and thus is closer to Dutch and English.

Do you think Plat still has social stigmas attached to it?

Hello Khodadad
 

First of all my apologizes - I have been under full job pressure during last weeks, so I could only visit inbetween.

Yes, Plattdeutsch is got a social stigma - it's still the language of the countryside - farmers, small villages - thats the regions where Plattdeutsch can be found alive.

I am living in the Ruhr valley, where a very special Platt is spoken - language of miners, mining coal in this area.

BUT: In the North, the non-commercial TV station has picked up needs - and a weekly service is made in Platt.

Reinhard

interested in platdeutch
 

hallo Khodadad,
I read your messages about Platdeutsch and was very interested. Just wanted to ask you a bit more about it all. I am Australian and have therefore no personal connection to Plat but I am however very fascinated by the similarities Platdeutsch has to the Engilsh language. I would like to research more about Plat and specifically the development of the English language in connection with different Plat dialects; how similar they really are etc...
I hope you could be of some help to me.
yramegg

Hello
 

Hello,

I am Enno, located in Bremen, a little bit more North than Ruhr Area.
What do you want to know?

Regards

Hi Enno
 

the forum should be proud to have a real "Hanseat" with us!

At the beginning, this thread started with the "Plautdietsch" spoken in South Africa, but at this time we found out that the real source of Plautdietsch is the German Plattdeutsch settlers spoke when they immigrated from Germany. Within the country, it mixed up a little bit with Dutch language (which, in our opinion, is kind of Plattdeutsch L=:-) ).

Finding the sources of real Platt is very difficult, as not only German language is mixed in, some northern languages have been part of it - do you know more?
If yes, please let us know

Reinhard aus'm Kohlenpott - Gruß nach Bremen(sing)

?
 

I'm sorry for irrelevant question, but here are some witty language marvels and may be anyone might know and share some information on Inuit/husky or Eskimo language?

Advice for Bio
 

Hi Bio,

There is no particular thread devoted to Inuit. However you can look for some really interesting information on it in the "Nordic languages" thread. Mostly it covers Norvegian, Swedish and Danish. Nonetheless, there are references to Inuit or Eskimo language as well.

Reinhard let me ask you to what is due this revived interest for Plautdeitsch? Although it is interesting to see that people show interest for threads left in the "basement" of the forum.;D
Sergiu

Hi
 

Frankly speaking to my shame I know nothing about Plautdietsch, more than that I've never heard about it before until here. How comes it that this language is spoken in so different countries in terms of linguistic groups: Mexico, Paraguay, Ukraine, Germany, Canada, Brazil, Belize, USA? What does Paraguay has to do with Ukraine, Ukraine with Germany, Germany with Brazil and so on in regards to this particular Plautdietsch? And I never heard of Plautdietsch in Ukraine? Can someone help me out with this mysterious connection?

Hello, Hi, Moin Moin, Greetings back to Rhein Area and to everybody.

Actually I come from Frisia originally, but Hanseatic Cities are also very nice!
I followed the funny thread, many things I did not know before, especially the part regarding Ukraine, Brasil and so on…

I do not exactly know, who needs to know, but hey : Here are some more facts about plattdeutsch. Some points were perhaps already mentioned.
Lower Saxonian or Low German:
It is not a dialect but an own language
It is the older language in Germany, the present high German derived from it (not other way)
It is not dutch, because dutch is a different language, there are also parts in the netherlands where low german (and some where frisian language) is spoken.
During the Hanseatic times it was one of the major trade languages arround North Sea and Balticum
It got the same roots as (old) english because People immigrated from lower Saxony and Schleswig Holstein (Angeln !) to England.
Today it contains a lot of english and french words because of wide spread trades and occupations
Emigrants probably took to everywhere they went to, obviously also to Ukraine, Brasil,

Regards
Enno

master painter
 

Platdeutsch is indeed German without being gone through the second soundshift(the law of Grimm) en therefor fonological very similair to Dutch, and Oldenglish also being a daughter of the northsea branch of proto-Germanic.

Plautdietsch Diaspora
 

Plautdietsch has spread to many parts of the world through the migrations of peoples of the Mennonite religion in pursuit of the freedom to practise their pacifist faith. Further info on this can be found at www.plautdietsch.ca.

My Plautdietsch
 

Here's a summary of my Plautdietsch family history. In the 1600's my ancestors fled the lowlands of Belgium, to Prussia because of persecution of non Catholics by the Ottoman Empire. Then Catherine the Great offered land to the Mennonites in Russia, where they went. In the late 1800's they were losing some of their freedoms, as keeping low german as their language as well as schooling. In 1879 my great grandfather along with a large exodus moved to Canada, where they were offered cheap land and rights of low german and schooling. In the early 1940's Canada was bringing in laws to send children to public schools. At this point many left for Mexico and later Belize, Bolivia and other South American countries. My mother lost many relatives to South America, but we stayed in Canada. This is at least the trail of my Plaut ancestors and why the language is in these countries. I and my wife speak it but our married children don't know it, so I feel it is dying out here. My wife's ancestory is the same except they started in the low lands of Holland.