Go Back   InfoHub > Hunting -D-> > Hunters' Lodge > General Hunting Discussions
Register FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

General Hunting Discussions Any discussions outside guns & gear are welcome here.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #11  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 08:50 AM
csobear's Avatar
csobear csobear is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 91
Default high fence hunts?

Man, if that doesnt take everything my heritage has taught me about hunting, the outdoors, and throw it out the window, like a pail of dirty water. I want to hunt where there is absolute wildness. No fences, no one pointing my animal out to me to shoot. That just rubs me the wrong way. Now, I understand management hunts, to cull the herd. But High Fence hunting is far from that. Heck, if that is the case, you can go KILL an elk at an elk ranch in Montana, never have to get cold, wet, sore feet, nothing. Just pay your money, walk out to a field and shoot the bull, the rancher PICKS for you. Not me, that is like walking out and shooting a steer. Might as well go to the grocery store and buy the meat. It would have about the same amount of meaning, and depth of character to me.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 08:59 AM
Mario's Avatar
Mario Mario is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 351
High Fence Hunting - I cannot even call it hunting

Hi John,

I totally agree with you, to go High Fence Hunting doesn't have that thril and that feeling, I do not know how to call it even, when you hunt... I would not even call High Fence Hunting, hunting, it is more target shooting. As for absolute wildness I think that it would be Russian Siberia, my dream is to hunt there. What is your hunting dream destination, if you have one?

Regards,
Mario
__________________
"What we think, we become." --Buddha--
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 09:27 AM
4everhunt
Unregistered User
 
Posts: n/a
Now you guys definitely speak some truth but you're missing some important points. High fences now grow faster than you would imagine. And the average hunter can't do anything about it. Business is business. Now hunting is business too. I am a natural born hunter and i will always hunt no matter the conditions. I prefer natural environment. But I ain't gonna stop hunting because they put up fences everywhere!
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 09:56 AM
hunter480 hunter480 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: coatesville, indiana
Posts: 42
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4everhunt
Now you guys definitely speak some truth but you're missing some important points. High fences now grow faster than you would imagine. And the average hunter can't do anything about it. Business is business. Now hunting is business too. I am a natural born hunter and i will always hunt no matter the conditions. I prefer natural environment. But I ain't gonna stop hunting because they put up fences everywhere!
I can`t speak to what’s going on in the rest of the country, but here in Indiana, these “business” are going away. Our state legislature, in conjunction with our Department of Natural Resources, is in the process of shutting these places down for good. The legislature, the DNR, the general public, and the hunting community all agree that these places need to go.

Aside from the obvious ethical issues, it would take away the thrill of the hunt, knowing these critters are basically caged. And something no one else has even mentioned yet, but these type places, as well as deer and elk farms, are thought to be where the CWD began.

So in Indiana at least, no one likes these places, and they are on their way out. I would love to see the whole country head down the same path. Unfortunately, if state governments don`t legislate these places out, they may not disappear.
__________________
greg



one nation UNDER God

Last edited by hunter480; March 3rd, 2006 at 10:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 11:28 AM
csobear's Avatar
csobear csobear is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 91
High Fence Hunting

Well, I do not know about everyone here on this forum, but I am very active politically when it comes to my firearms rights, and hunting. I talk to my State Wildlife Dept. every chance I get. I make my feelings and ideas known to them. I also, make sure I vote, go to public forums etc... when it comes to hunting issues. Our main problem in SW Washington State is that Weyerhauser owns probably 70% of the best hunting real estate there is. They have had problems with the Ultra Leftist enviromentalists. Destroying thier equipment, etc...... Sooooooo , now they have large, steel gates on every access road onto thier timberland. They will open one or two of them on the weekends during elk and deer season,, but other than that,, they are closed. And they will have you arrested for trespassing. The hunters that really care about this issue, are working with Weyerhauser, and the game dept. to come to a resolution.
I guess, in a long winded way, I am saying you can stop the High Fences, with a little grass roots movement, and getting active with your Wildlife Dept. in your state. Make some noise, remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

As for my dream hunt location, probably Alaska, or a second trip into the Bob Marshall Wilderness in Montana.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old March 3rd, 2006, 11:38 AM
hunter480 hunter480 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: coatesville, indiana
Posts: 42
Default

[quote=csobear]Well, I do not know about everyone here on this forum, but I am very active politically when it comes to my firearms rights, and hunting. I talk to my State Wildlife Dept. every chance I get. I make my feelings and ideas known to them. I also, make sure I vote, go to public forums etc... when it comes to hunting issues. Our main problem in SW Washington State is that Weyerhauser owns probably 70% of the best hunting real estate there is. They have had problems with the Ultra Leftist enviromentalists. Destroying thier equipment, etc...... Sooooooo , now they have large, steel gates on every access road onto thier timberland. They will open one or two of them on the weekends during elk and deer season,, but other than that,, they are closed. And they will have you arrested for trespassing. The hunters that really care about this issue, are working with Weyerhauser, and the game dept. to come to a resolution.
I guess, in a long winded way, I am saying you can stop the High Fences, with a little grass roots movement, and getting active with your Wildlife Dept. in your state. Make some noise, remember, the squeaky wheel gets the grease.

And well they should have tresspassers arrested. If you`re poaching and/or tresspassing, you should pay.
My gripe would be that they probably do get law enforcement to arrest tresspassers. Even though a private land owner has a really tough time getting someone arrested. That`s IF they even come out. My nephew caught a guy tresspassing on his ground. He confronted the guy, and the tresspasser threatened him. My nephew called the sheriff, and when he finally got there, told him there was nothing that could be done. He would have had to personally seen the guy tresspassing. How frustrating.
__________________
greg



one nation UNDER God
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old March 23rd, 2006, 08:04 AM
Mario's Avatar
Mario Mario is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 351
Thumbs down I also do not like tresspassers!

Quote:
Originally Posted by hunter480
And well they should have tresspassers arrested. If you`re poaching and/or tresspassing, you should pay.
My gripe would be that they probably do get law enforcement to arrest tresspassers. Even though a private land owner has a really tough time getting someone arrested. That`s IF they even come out. My nephew caught a guy tresspassing on his ground. He confronted the guy, and the tresspasser threatened him. My nephew called the sheriff, and when he finally got there, told him there was nothing that could be done. He would have had to personally seen the guy tresspassing. How frustrating.
I also do not like tresspassers, maybe because I like when eveything is fair and it is not when someone gets on your property, isn't it?

It is strange though that the tresspasser wasn't arrested, really frustrating, in Europe there are laws that permit a person to catch the tresspasser and then give him into the hand of the authorities.

How did the whole story end up?

Regards,
Mario
__________________
"What we think, we become." --Buddha--
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old March 23rd, 2006, 08:07 PM
1dahunter's Avatar
1dahunter 1dahunter is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: West Central Wisconsin
Posts: 10
Default

I personally wouldnt hunt penned animals but I do see a use for it as there are alot of disabled hunters that cant get out in the woods due to there handicap so I can see it would make a world of difference to some one to still be able to hunt. I also wouldnt hire an outfitter because that takes the thrill of tracking and finding the animals. JMO
__________________
Do what ya gotta do
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old June 15th, 2006, 06:26 AM
Mario's Avatar
Mario Mario is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Italy
Posts: 351
Default High fence hunting

Hi Jim,

I do agree with you on this matter, both of them in fact, hiring and outfitter is not a way to hunt, it is nearly the same thing like going to the museum, "Look left you can see a deer, you can shoot it", yuk, regarding the fence hunting I think that it should be provided to hunters that are not able to go in the field and hunt, but only for them, in my oppinion high fence hunting should be prohibited to hunters that can hunt the usual way, because else it is not hunting it is shooting, or better said killing, beacause the animal has no chance to escape.

Regards, Mario



Quote:
Originally Posted by 1dahunter
I personally wouldnt hunt penned animals but I do see a use for it as there are alot of disabled hunters that cant get out in the woods due to there handicap so I can see it would make a world of difference to some one to still be able to hunt. I also wouldnt hire an outfitter because that takes the thrill of tracking and finding the animals. JMO
__________________
"What we think, we become." --Buddha--
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old August 28th, 2006, 10:48 PM
Jack Ryan Jack Ryan is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: USA
Posts: 151
Default Re: High Fence Hunting???

No-win’ deal would extend canned hunts
By Niki Kelly
The Journal Gazette

Hupfer

INDIANAPOLIS – Kyle Hupfer, director of the Indiana Department of Natural Resources, made the pronouncement last August: no more hunting of white-tailed deer and other animals behind high fences.

The Department of Natural Resources passed emergency and permanent rules, and the governor and attorney general signed off.

The legislature tangled with the issue but failed to intervene.

And yet a year after Hupfer delivered those stern words on hunting ethics and fair chase, he is nearing a settlement with a handful of shooting preserve owners that allows the controversial activity to continue for at least a decade.

“It’s a no-win situation,” he said. “I think we are working on something that, while no one’s going to jump for joy, it finishes the issue for all time in the state and we move on.”

Hupfer insists he still adamantly opposes high-fenced preserves – also called canned hunting.

“We need to remove high-fenced hunting from the state of Indiana. I would say the only difference is we need to do it as quickly as we possibly can without overly putting risk on the DNR,” Hupfer said.

He also points out that the state has now officially “frozen the field” or stopped new preserves from starting up. The only question that remains is what to do with the existing businesses.

“Whatever settlement we’re going to reach, the Fair Chase Alliance would have jumped at before I was DNR director,” Hupfer said of a group of sportsmen and conservationists against canned hunting.

“We’ve taken this argument a long distance, and I don’t think that this is the time to get greedy,” he said. “I think this is the time to be reasonable, be fair.”

Times gone by

The issue began to fester in the late 1990s when a few facilities began springing up under the guise of a game breeder’s license. The owners charged thousands of dollars for hunters to come in and shoot prized deer bred specifically for large antlers.

There are about 350 deer or elk farms throughout Indiana, many of which have the game breeder’s license. But only a handful offer hunting.

Many outdoors groups opposed the operations from the beginning, saying no Indiana law specifically authorized the activity. But preserve owners argued nothing explicitly prohibited it either.

And some of the breeders received conflicting advice from former DNR administrations.

The biggest and best-known preserve was Bellar’s Place in Miami County. That is until owner Russell Bellar was convicted of federal wildlife violations. He pleaded guilty in 2005 after testimony at his trial included the fact that deer were sometimes drugged and placed in smaller pens to be shot by celebrities and other affluent hunters.

Bellar then became a rallying cry for the Fair Chase Alliance to get rid of canned hunting in Indiana.

Hupfer, a lawyer and longtime hunter, came in as director in January 2005. He spent months having hearings on the subject, doing research and talking to everyone involved.

That led to the August news conference where he said nothing in Indiana law allows shooting preserves to exist.

“This is just something that is extremely unethical,” he said then. “In order to preserve the hunting tradition, we must ensure that all hunting in Indiana is done in an ethical manner and in a way that conforms with long-standing fair chase ethics.”

At the time, Hupfer said he would give legislators one session to intervene before he began enforcement, noting there had been confusion on their legality in the past.

The fighting begins

Soon after Hupfer’s announcement, one owner – Rodney Bruce, who runs Whitetail Bluff in Corydon – filed suit in Harrison County and won the first legal round, receiving a preliminary injunction barring the DNR from taking any action to stop deer hunts at his southern Indiana preserve.

Hupfer called the injunction hearing “enlightening,” including some documentation that former DNR officials sent to Bruce telling him he was allowed to offer private fee-hunting.

Former DNR director John Goss – who now heads the Indiana Wildlife Federation – disputes the letter, saying it has been blown out of proportion and was never an authorization of canned hunting.

In early 2006, lawmakers tried to tack amendments on numerous bills making the DNR compensate the owners for lost revenue, but the session ended March 14 with no changes to state law either legalizing canned hunting or supporting the owners.

But conversations with legislators appear to have swayed Hupfer, as they brought up issues of property rights and the taking of a person’s business.

Another possibility is that the owners could win the suit altogether and force the state to pay an expensive settlement.

“I don’t have some luxuries that a person who isn’t in this position has. I have a responsibility to look out for the best interest of the resources, and not put this agency at undue risk,” he said.

He argued that even if there is a 5 percent chance at a potential liability for the state, “that risk is not outweighed by the risk of allowing these folks to do what they’ve been doing for a few more years.”

Divergent views

But that’s not how some Hoosier sportsmen see it.

Doug Allman, an advocate with the Indiana Deer Hunters Association, has been fighting the issue for years and is disappointed with the idea of a settlement.

“To me this is about principle. It’s either right or wrong,” he said. “If our legislators want to put the pressure on, then they need to (legalize) it and have their fingerprints on it and be held accountable by the voters.

“It’s bogus for us to say it’s wrong and unethical, but then look the other way for 10 years.”

He is one side of a growing split among hunters and conservationists – some want an all-out ban with immediate enforcement, and others are willing to let the preserves die quietly a few years from now.

Gene Hopkins, legislative chairman and past president of the Indiana Bowhunters Association, favors a five- to seven-year extension.

“The reason for allowing them to continue is to recoup their investment,” he said.

Hupfer identified a handful of owners the agency is negotiating with: Bruce Brandbenburg, who runs Shale Hollow Whitetail in Underwood; Bruce in Corydon; Richard Davis, who runs White Oak Elk Ranch in Sellersburg; Lee Fritz, who runs Backwoods Whitetails in Bremen; Ken McIntosh, who runs Midwest Woodlots in Pierceton; and Richard Reed, who runs R&R Elk Ranch in St. Joe.

Several other deer farms are marked as hunting preserves on a spreadsheet from the Indiana State Board of Animal Health, but Hupfer said the others have either stopped hunting or gone out of business altogether.

His original target was to have the settlement done before hunting season – with the preserves usually starting elk hunting by Sept. 1 and deer by Oct. 1. He expects the five other owners to intervene in the Harrison County court case and ask for the same injunction Bruce received.

The DNR will not fight such a move, he said, as a result of the ongoing good-faith negotiations.

Settlement details

A proposed settlement from June that has been passed around the hunting community contains some of the key points of a possible agreement but also shows where the DNR and owners diverge on key issues.

Hupfer said initial talks centered on a five- to 20-year phase-out for those hunting operations in existence before Jan. 1, 2006, but he thinks the number has settled at 10 years. He said any agreement would require the owners to admit the activity is illegal and to cease at the end of the established window.

He also said he would like to include a requirement that they are allowed to use only Indiana-raised deer, which would further restrict importing deer.

The preserves would likely also be allowed to hunt wild boar, elk and a few other species in addition to white-tailed deer. But Hupfer said he would not allow hunting of exotic animals, such as zebras and giraffes.

Other issues in the mix include hunting dates, allowable weapons and bag limits.

And one section of the proposal even limits the ability of those involved in the settlement to directly or indirectly lobby the legislature on the issue.

Hupfer said the agreement could be jeopardized because the Humane Society of the United States has filed to intervene in the case and is trying to compel the DNR to enforce the law instead of settle. A court hearing is scheduled for Sept. 8.

Marching orders?

Allman said he blames Gov. Mitch Daniels, not Hupfer, for backing down, saying his office has pushed a settlement even though lawmakers could not get enough votes to pass such an option.

A form letter sent by the governor’s office when he receives correspondence on the subject said Hupfer is “looking to eliminate the practice in Indiana for future generations, even if the result involves some kind of settlement,” and that Daniels supports this approach.

The letter also notes that previous administrations did not take steps to eliminate the facilities and discontinue expansion.

Campaign finance reports show few donations from the preserve owners to Daniels.

In fact, not counting contributions from Bellar of $4,500, the others have given only $600.

John Okeson, senior legislative counsel in the governor’s office, has been working on the issue since it arose in the General Assembly.

He said that Hupfer and Daniels believe as a matter of sportsmanship this activity should not be tolerated. But he conceded the issue is fraught with emotion and financial investment, and Indiana’s proposed settlement would fall somewhere in between what other states have done on the issue.

“Because of the facts of the situation there are some issues that are not clearly resolvable one way or the other,” Okeson said. “This is something everybody can live with and something no one really likes in its entirety.”

Goss is baffled by the whole thing, saying “it’s very frustrating that one property owner going to court could derail” all the progress.

Both McIntosh and Reed – who have hunting operations in northeast Indiana – appear at ease with the situation and say they are ready to hunt this fall.

In fact, McIntosh’s season is already booked up. He leases several thousand acres for free-range hunting of wild deer and then has 160 acres under high fence where hunters pay top dollar to kill trophy deer.

“Our hunters enjoy seeing the deer make scrapes, rubs, fight and chase the does,” according to his Web site. “The things you just never get to see unless you are in a managed herd.”

McIntosh was hesitant to talk because he doesn’t want to jeopardize the settlement, but he did say that those hunters visiting his operation bring significant tourism money in the state.

“I love what I do, and people are having a lot of fun.” http://www.hoosierhunting.com/ubb/ul...;f=15;t=000287
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:10 PM.
Forums
Arts & Crafts
Castles & Palaces
Cycling Forum
Ecotour & Wildlife
Gourmet Travel
Hiking & Trekking
Hunting
Language Study
Scuba Diving
Traveler's Inn

Popular Vacations
Arts & Crafts
Bicycle Tours
Birding
Boating & Sailing
Canoeing/Kayaking/Rafting
Culture Journey
Eco Tourism
Farm Stay & Ranching
Fishing
Food & Wine
Golf
Hiking & Trekking
Hunting
Language Schools
Mountain/Rock Climbing
Naturist
Photography and Videography
Railway Trips
Scuba Diving
Spa
Spiritual Vacations
Sports
Wildlife Viewing

Communities
Travel Deals
Travel Tips
Travel Photos
Travel Videos
Travel Articles

Copyright  © InfoHub, Inc.   All rights reserved